This continues a series I’ve called “Blogging Dobson” – (Part 1) – (Part 2) – on some comments in the Dobson book “Straight Talk to Men and Their Wives”. I pull out some “interesting statements” which illustrate the fallacy that these kinds of ministries perpetrate of being “godly” or “family-affirming”.
I wrote some last time of the trend that Focus On The Family popularized and most others have followed onto in Churchianity about how marriage is defined, especially for husbands:

He used to have his own TV show!
He wants to call men to lead their families, but cuts them down in every step. As covered many times, this pattern only results in the feminist goal being attained – a husband with all the responsibility [of the marriage] and none of the authority over his wife to carry it out. Dobson has sought and succeeded to crown husbands as “King Nothing”. [furthering Marriage 2.0]
It’s not coincidental that this theme repeats itself again and again even in so-called “Christian red-pill” blogs (proving that they are really “blue-pill”), as well as in Churchian media. Feminist headship theology is so common that it has been dealt with before on this blog (here and here).
It is the chief means of many that is used for pulling the proverbial football away and causing husbands to fail in their responsibilities as heads over their families. They are not allowed the God-given authority that Adam and the Patriarchs possessed to hold their wives accountable before God and make them hold the proverbial football in place. Husbands may be the figurehead of their family and even think that they have the power behind their responsibilities, but they find different when they are rebuked at every step by the Churchian feminists when it comes time to exercise that “authority” and then ultimately crushed by the State family court with Churchian blessing. The power of woman worship and vagina addiction is indeed a strong force – one that many are loathe to give up even after they claim acceptance of the “red-pill”. Dalrock posts three examples of such things. Simon Grey gives us the best example of the three for our topic at hand:
There is a certain segment of the Manosophere that is both nominally Christian and participates in the Men’s Rights Movement (MRM). I generally make a point of avoiding these people since, as far as I can tell based on what I’ve read, they generally make a point of blaming women for everything that’s wrong with the world…
…
A husband’s job, though, is to obey God and do what he says. In regards to marriage, the husband is expected to lead. He is expected to treat his wife with kindness. He is to love his wife and not be bitter towards her. He is to protect his wife. He is to provide for his wife. He is to sacrifice himself for his wife, if necessary. He is to make sure that his wife is sexually fulfilled. He is to do this because God requires this of him. He is not to do this because he expects his wife to return the favor…
Among the other obvious doctrinal errors in this piece, which always occurs in these feminist Churchian man-up rants I’ve encountered, the most obvious one is what is always missing – the fact that the Bible stresses the wife’s submission over the husband’s leadership. The Biblical call is not to the husbands to lead their wives, but the wives to submit to their husbands as to the Lord and to respect their husbands. This is always missing in such feminist man-up rants.
The reason should be obvious to those with any common-sense. A leader who holds no authority over those he is supposed to lead has no ability to fulfill his responsibilities before the Lord whatsoever. Calling a man to step-up and lead his family without the public support (both in Church and without) to bring his rebellious wife under his subjection before the Lord is putting the cart before the horse. He can not succeed in leading his family without first eliminating his wife from cutting his efforts out from under him at every step by her rebellion before God. He can not succeed with the Church and State disavowing his God-given authority at every step to carry out his responsibilities and crushing him at every opportunity he takes to exercise that authority. Trying to lead a wife and children he has no authority over is a fool’s errand. A suicide mission. Marriage 2.0 is like that for a husband. No wonder any man with full knowledge of what is going on doesn’t marry. This leads us to Dobson’s statement of feminist headship theology (1):
It will not be popular to restate the age-old Biblical concept that God holds men accountable for leadership in their families. Nevertheless, that’s the way I interpret the Scriptures. (he cites 1 Timothy 3:4-5, PHILLIPS here)
Whether women’s activists like it or not, a Christian man is obligated to lead his family to the best of his ability. This assignment does not justify iron-fisted oppression of children or the disregard of a woman’s needs and wishes, of course. But God apparently expects a man to be the ultimate decision maker in his family. Likewise, he bears heavier responsibility for the outcome of those decisions. If his family has purchased too many items on credit, then the financial crunch is ultimately his fault. If the family never reads the Bible or seldom goes to church on Sunday, God holds the man to blame. If the children are disrespectful and disobedient, the primary responsibility lies with the father . . . not his wife. (I don’t remember Eli’s wife being criticized for raising two evil sons; it was her husband who came under God’s wrath. See 1 Samuel 3:13.)
…
In my view, America’s greatest need is for husbands to begin guiding their families, rather than pouring every physical and emotional resource into the mere acquisition of money. That belief motivated the book you are reading.
All the necessary elements of the feminist man-up rant are here:
1. The justification of the husband leading without the wife’s submission.
2. The sparse use of Scripture to fabricate out of whole cloth a “husbands lead your wives” call, tying her submission to whether he leads to her satisfaction or not, as if she will magically fall out of her rebellion.
3. How everything the wife does is always the husband’s fault and never her own – ultimately making the wife be seen as sinless and blameless.
4. Always done to the detriment of other Scriptures which paint a different clearer message that yes women indeed sin before the Lord, and they need to be brought to account.
Dobson states: “But the purpose of this chapter has been to reaffirm the importance of authority in a family — first in the provision of gentle direction and guidance, and second, in raising healthy children.” (2) He as many others sounds good in presenting such doctrine, but it is always coupled with the undermining of the husband’s authority, and punishment of the husband when he dares use the authority. The rest of Dobson’s book (as the other one I mentioned) serves this function. As well, the rest of the teaching, and culture supports this end.
Again, Adam had authority to bring his wife under subjection. Let us remember that God’s admonition towards him was prefaced by “Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife”. He chosen to listen to his wife before he chose to listen to God – in other words, he chose to not use his authority to quash his wife’s rebellion before the Lord. Instead he submitted himself to his wife. He put his wife before God.
But Adam had much more authority over his family than the average husband has today. Ultimately when a husband’s leadership is thwarted at every step, he is left with no recourse but to NOT LEAD HIS FAMILY and submit to his wife instead. This is purposeful in enforcing Marriage 2.0, where its design is to bring the husband under subjection to the wife. If a husband today sanctions his wife for buying too much under credit, she just scoffs at him and continues. She knows he can’t do a single thing to stop her if she continues. If he continues to challenge her authority as head of the marriage, she can use the State and claim that he is abusing her (as all uses of Godly husbandly authority is). If he continues his rebellion against his wife’s authority, she can then proceed to crush him in family court for cash and prizes, leaving him destitute. She will get what she wants, no matter what it takes. The Church and the State will support her.
Unfortunately, he thinks that Marriage 1.0 is still in force – that he can lead his family and have the authority to do so:
Then it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there’s no one around
Just want one thing
Just to play the king
But the castle’s crumbled
And you’re left with just a nameWhere’s your crown, King Nothing?
Where’s your crown?
Dr. Dobson, America’s greatest need with respect to families is for the rebellion of wives to be quashed by husbands being granted their God-given authority over their wives and be allowed to adequately lead their families and not be cut down at every step.
(1) “Straight Talk to Men and Their Wives” by Dr. James C. Dobson p 64-65. (2) ibid page 69.
Another way to look at it. Dobson chose to use corporate leadership as an example (in a part I cut out). We can use military leadership as well. Are officers sanctioned because they aren’t leading when a soldier continually doesn’t follow orders under his command, while the soldier is left blameless and without sanction? Or is the soldier brought up on charges of insubordination of a commanding officer and then given a court-martial? In most cases I’ve read about, the officer would be sanctioned if he were to NOT bring the soldier up on these charges.
Same goes for the corporate situation – how many employees would last very long before they would get fired for insubordination?
As with most all things about marriage, how is it that authority under marriage is totally different than what is common-sense? Unfortunately, most wives submit better and more faithfully to their bosses at work than to their own husbands. The answer should be obvious as to why this is: Her boss at work has more authority than her husband at home to bring pain upon her if she chooses to rebel against his leadership.
Where is Scripture specifically are men called to lead their wives? I don’t think I’ve seen it. I have seen admonition for wives to submit to their husbands, even if the husbands don’t obey the Word.
What this tells me is that submission is about God’s order, not about whether or not the individual partners in the marriage deserve the position they find themselves in as a consequence of birth.
When we make a wife’s submission conditional upon the husband’s quality of leadership, we start down the proverbial slippery slop that we have before us now.
I know what it is to be unequally yoked. It was a decision I made with eyes wide open and it wasn’t always easy to live in submission to an unbelieving husband, but I did it.He is a natural leader, which helped, but I had plenty of those “I-don’t-have-to-follow-your-ungodly-leadership” urges. Thankfully my husband is no longer an unbeliever.
You’re on to something here, Ballista. Not that it doesn’t matter what kind of leadership a husband provides (it certainly does), but the quality of his leadership offers no exceptions to the command for a wife to submit.
Wives need to keep their eyes on their own verses, pray, and do what is commanded.
“Trying to lead a wife and children he has no authority over is a fool’s errand. A suicide mission.”
Self-sacrifice according to scriptural principles (without any guarantee of success) has merit, but the “suicide mission” alluded to here is not the loss of a single faithful man; more likely, it is the destruction of a complete family. When proper authority is removed from a home, we are not merely dealing with a personal loss to the man in question, but a grave risk to the entire household.
We all must bow to God. Men are specifically set in place to guide and protect the family. Women are instructed to follow. Dissention within the ranks will cripple the best efforts of any father/husband, while the church and state will offer little help from without.
We need to hold fast to scriptural order as opposed to popular “feel-good” agendas. If we follow the lopsided approach of Dr. Dobson, we will be easy targets and our children will pay the greater price.
It’s more complicated for men than it is for women, we don’t have to worry about responsibility of the man, we just need to figure out how to submit and respect…still working on those two
. Good questions and it’s nice to see a guy who cares enough about the biblical answers. I’m interested to see your discoveries.
@ Sis: “it’s nice to see a guy who cares enough about the biblical answers.”
What exactly do you mean by this?
@Ballista
Dobson is a compromiser: he’s always been more interested in a drive to ‘christianise’ the culture than to adhere closely to Scriptural truth — look at how he and Colson compromised with Rome, rather than sticking the knife in the Great Whore. With regard to his idea of a husband’s having somehow to ‘lead’ a rebellious wife, the picture in Scripture is that the husband is to love the wife, as Christ loved the church. Christ doesn’t ‘lead’ the rebellious church — He has very little to do with her, since she refuses to submit to Him. Indeed, if you want to see how He deals with the rebellious church, go read Revelation!
@Elspeth
That sounds for all the world as though you claim that you were a believer, and simply ignored the injunction of God’s Word, because you wanted a particular man. Did you? With eyes wide open? Did you believe that you knew better than Paul? …That God would just “sort it out”, because hey, we’re talking about you and your happiness here, after all? So many women follow their tingles into bad relationships, and your paragraph appears to say, “Well, hey, it’s difficult, but God’ll fix it for ya” — that’s an absolutely deadly message.
If this is not what you intended to convey, it’s really not at all clear from reading your comment: if you ever relate your story again, please make it much plainer, since there are scads of lovesick, self-deceiving women in churches who are bent on marrying unregenerate heathen, against the clear exhortation of Scripture — thinking, “but God will do it for me“, and all they’ll need is ‘proof’ like your account here. It’s the Christian version of “I know he’s pumped ‘n dumped girls in the past, but I can change him — ‘cos it’s me we’re talking about here!” I believe that besides oestrogen and progesterone, there is an as yet undiscovered female hormone called narcissin…
…And most “unequal yokings” don’t turn out anywhere near as well as yours. Repent, woman!
Elspeth asked:
I suppose we could infer it from Ephesians 5:23 – For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
The head leads. But it doesn’t specifically say that.
I guess I don’t see it as a black and white issue where he’s the boss and she’s the slave. Christ complicated everything when He took the position of servant and washed the disciples’ feet. Christ wasn’t the typical king that most kings were. Women are supposed to submit and respect, there’s no doubt about that. But the man’s role isn’t so easy to understand. Men are supposed to be king and Christ, authority and humble, leader and servant. it’s confusing.
@Sis:
It’s actually not confusing, when you’re a guy. Especially if you’ve had to actually *lead* something. Kings survive about a week if they don’t serve their population properly. That seems strange to most, on a first read, due to the fact that “well, they’re the King”. But that’s not the way authority is sustained. A King that won’t defend his authority nor provide societal security will be dead very quickly. For all of the regal imagery that we think of with Kings, survival is really their first order of priority.
So when Christ washed his disciplines’ feet, he was inverting their understanding of what a King is or how they act. Though, in many ways, he was just showing them (and us) knowledge that they simply would not have had. The King always put on a good show so that the population thinks the King is above them. (This was also in the time that Caeasr = a god, so think about it like that, as well) Christ was displaying the actual mechanics of how a King truly operates and why the Kingdom of God is very different from the Kingdoms of Man.
Oh, and the boss/slave dichotomy is a completely modern invention and thought process to relationships. Pretty much no one has previously viewed a marriage as that dynamic. But this comes mostly from people being unable to actually understand what to “be under authority” of another means. Actually, it’s back to old Uncle Karl’s effect on the world. I’m really starting to hate Marxists with a passion.
@Mensch
Indeed. One I’ve heard many times. In the original instance, which caused a firestorm over on Dalrock’s, I observed in my own church-going life how many couples have presented themselves in this same way in public, with no warnings whatsoever of what the Biblical message truly is:
On that thought, I can’t honestly think of any church-going couple I’m in contact with that did it the right way and a lot of them have marriages on the old side…I am praying on how *personal* to get with some of these things I’m observing for future posts, especially since I hesitate on making one’s personal life (mine or others) the subject of blog posts. There’s this matter, and then there’s things like dating profiles (I found one that’s a bisexual, touts her love of oral sex, and her “serious Christianity” – it’s a perfect picture of the average Churchian woman men are dealing with today), and pictures of Churchian women at the Sunday Morning Nightclub.
+1, there’s too many testimonies out there about how they are in “happy marriages” and that “dating evangelism worked out” and “he finally came around and accepted Christ. I rebuked one of those church-going couples a month or two ago (not directly but directly enough that they should have seen I was talking about them) when the Scripture above came up in a Bible study I was sitting in on, and they seemed to take it well and agree that there should be a warning about this Scripture when it comes to taking what they have done as an example to others. So I guess that’s good news in a way, if they take it to heart.
@Sis: There’s nothing confusing about it. You’re just holding onto a Marriage 2.0 concept related to the personal Jesus (the idea of the sacrificial servant for HER glory). Looking Glass’ response is very good in that respect. The corporate world is a very good example for what we have today, since there isn’t others to fall back upon. It’s not a boss/slave relationship, as if there is no choice on the part of the employee. If things get too iron-fisted, the employee can leave. And if enough of the employees leave, the boss will be called on the carpet for his leadership skills.
We could go back to the kings of the Old Testament as well, but that would be a very expansive study that would take much too long. But the lesson there is one of love, which is wrapped in the commandments that husbands ARE given regarding their wives. The king can rule as an iron-fisted tyrant with only regard for himself, but that won’t last very long. The benevolent and wise king seeks the benefit of those that he rules over and doesn’t seek to make himself or his welfare greater than his people – this is the lesson to take away out of the foot washing. The benevolent and wise king takes challenges to his authority seriously as well and deals with those. The benevolent or wise king doesn’t throw himself into the ROLE of servant – or he is not respected and his authority vanishes. This is the mistake that Churchians are getting husbands to make in using this teaching. The husband becomes HER SERVANT, and then he ultimately ends up submitting to her.
Sis, your fast reference to foot washing is not at all unexpected. Whenever a pastor even deigns examine a woman’s call to submit, he will invoke the terms servant leader, then he will proceed to explain all the things the man is NOT…as leader, all the bad manifestations of ogre men, all the rules against him, and finally nearly breathlessly, with the women nodding as metronomes, he will (cue piano softly playing) add that what the man IS to do is as Jesus washing feet. Let’s pray……
The effect is that the leader portion of servant leader is rubbed out, bad bad bad dont think about that its bad…..and we are left with the overwhelming majority of Christian women processing the role of man exactly as you have. The preacher didnt necessarily state any single thing that is incorrect on its own, what he did was add so much sugar the spoonful of medicine was left sitting on the counter. The placebo fails.
The slave boss dichotomy is an offshoot of the same preaching, because that is what the preacher is saying when he lists off all the bad bad bad manifestations of male headship. he sets a false dichotomy, ogre boss/slave vs foot washing (supplicant-implied),then invariably asks, “what women would not want to follow a man like that?
The result of all this teaching is the divorce rate and sexual immorality in the church because as in the case of submission, in any area that has a male and female aspect, the preacher will list the bad bad bad for the male, and the poor dear snowflakes and their wounded self esteem.
If I may Sis:
http://empathological.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/women-stop-submitting/
http://empathological.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/moore-on-submission-and-an-epiphany/
http://empathological.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/a-one-sided-conversation-with-dr-moore/
You can read about the Dean of the Southern Baptist seminary and in his own words see how this gets all twisted up. Ballista, only because its germane, not a shameless plug.
@ Mensch:
I was raised in a “Christian” home and attended a Baptist church my whole life. We were very religious, and while no one ever said to me directly, “Don’t marry a non-Christian”, I understood that the Bible had something to say about this.
I often described myself as a “lapsed Christian” at the time I met and married my husband. I was 21 and newly on my own after having been highly sheltered most of my life. To say that I was regenerate would be a great leap. I actually remember quite vividly when the reality of how sinful I was before God came to me and I had been married 3 years at the time and had 3 young children at that point.
But yes, I made a decision, and it was quite conscious. I met a man I wanted (who wanted me too) and I went for it. I’ll spare you the gory details, although it’s no secret to anyone who has any familiarity with me, since I shared them on my own blog which is currently suspended.
I always wonder what I am supposed to say (now, after 19 years and 5 kids) when the accusatory questions come about the way I chose my husband. Am I proud of everything I did and how? Absolutely not. Neither by the way, is my husband. Do we regret marrying each other? Absolutely not.
More importantly, we have simply leaned into the grace of God and done everything in our power to live holy lives and give our children better guidance than we received, which is really all we can do at this point, isn’t it?
That first sentence should have read, “We were NOT very religious.”
@ SSM:
Yes, I agree that the head is the leader. My point was that the husband is the leader, whether the wife likes it or not. He’s the leader whether HE likes it or not. It just is. The only question is what kind of leader he is. The position is unchanging.
It is the wife’s responsibility to put herself in proper subjection to him so that he is not left to fight her for the reins or abdicate his post to keep the peace.
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Mensch:
Your request for a clearer explanation is here:
http://traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/when-youve-done-what-youve-done-whats-left-to-do/
I think part of the problem is most of us were not very good Christians in our youth. I had converted when I was about 17, but my behavior wasn’t very Christian most the time because my rationalization hamster was as youthful, energetic, and healthy as I was. I could come up with a good excuse for nearly anything.
Which is why young people need heavy guidance.
@Elspeth
You’ve misread my remarks.
My point was not about how you chose your husband — if you weren’t yet truly regenerate at the time, then that explains it — rather, it was the careless and dangerous way your comment was worded.
Again — not the issue. God has been exceedingly gracious to you both.
Please, Elspeth, reread my post. And Ballista’s reply to it.
It’s entirely possible that I misread your words, but your closing salvo stopped me short:
…And most “unequal yokings” don’t turn out anywhere near as well as yours. Repent, woman!
It reminded me of the numerous times I’ve heard this refrain from men who find my story disconcerting, a story of a so-called Christian woman who followed her tingles to the altar and lives to tell how awesome her marriage is.
Hence the post I wrote at TC.
@Elspeth: I’ll summarize the point of the post I had in mind after the blow-up at Dalrock over your comments on this topic that I mentioned but was reticent about over it being too personal, if it helps you understand the problem we are having
The problem that most people have with your message isn’t that you married the way you did. God has shown much grace and mercy to you and your husband for having done marriage the way you have. This is a proper and good message that God can clean up things in people’s lives despite what they have done against Him. However, there are many other examples of marriage where being unequally yoked has presented nothing but problems.
The problem that comes (and what me, Mensch, and the folks at Dalrock had a problem with) is with the example your marriage presents to the younger ones who might hear or read what you write and think that is God’s approved way, since it has turned out so well for you. This is obvious to most of us that have had any degree of red-pill in our lives, Christian or not. You are old enough that you are presenting an example to those that are coming after you, and even if you were young, your blogging history gives enough weight to what you write that people will take your example as gospel truth. Consequently, you need to take great care that you are presenting the right message in the sight of God. Because God didn’t curse your marriage or strike you down for being unequally yoked, it still doesn’t mean that God approved of the way it happened.
It is much like a couple that meets and fornicates their way to their marriage day. God might favor them with a blessed marriage that lasts a lifetime, but speaking of their fornication positively when it comes to their witness before others does not benefit God and ultimately is a sin in His eyes. This couple *can* present a Godly witness when it comes to their marriage, but it can not speak positively of the fornication that occurred.
Hopefully that helps you understand (at least) where I’m coming from better.
I do understand better, thank you. I fully appreciate the concerns, though I always considered my story as a testimony for a different target audience than young unmarried women. We all know how many Christian women use their unequally yoked situations as the excuse they need to leave.
Not all of these are marriages where the Christian woman married a non-Christian. I’ve seen many where the wife converted after marriage and found the husband’s lack of faith so burdensome and intolerable that the marriage crumbled under the strain. Rather than live up to their vows and obey Scripture, these women find a Churchian preacher or women’s group with a sympathetic ear and eventually leave in hopes of finding a “real Christian man”.
This is what I aim to curtail with my testimony. It is not to encourage young Christian women that they can marry a sexy heathen and eventually end up in a happy marriage like me. I hope and pray that Christian parents use more wisdom and provide more guidance for their young people so that they don’t find themselves taking their cues from the wrong examples.
Thanks for the dialogue.
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